It has been dubbed the most entertaining CCLiveChat ever and the only thing I did was mention snot. He! We were talking about body fluids so it was not that far out, right?
But seriously, we had an enlightening chat with Sue Carney about blood patterns, how they evolve, wet versus dry blood, how blood traveled at impact and more. We spoke about test that can show different blood patterns even if they were dropped on one spot but that those results would not say anything about the time frame in which the blood was actually dropped.
We briefly touched on luminol and other chemicals used during testing as well. And yes, bleach in the right quantity does do considerable damage to DNA!
The chat brought up questions that were related to the age-typing of blood but this is as Andrew said, in the test-tube fase. Andrew is our guest next week on a themed chat about fire investigations! Boy, do I have a list with questions for you, Andrew!
If you have questions concerning blood pattern analysis for Sue, just type them into the comment section below this post and she will answer them later on. If you prefer, you can also tweet them. If there are many questions, we can always do another chat with Sue to get more in-depth answers from her.
The schedule for all the themed CCLiveChat sessions is on the home page. The verbatim text is below!
Enjoy!
| Vidocq_CC | Welcome, folks to another themed Cold Case Live Chat, a Twitter exclusive! Our guest is Sue Carney aka @lilaclounge! #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 16:59:22 +0000 |
| Vidocq_CC | Out theme today is blood and going over the previous chat, we had questions re age determination of blood spots and formation. #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:00:01 +0000 |
| LilacLounge | @Vidocq_CC Good afternoon live chat folks! 🙂 #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:00:28 +0000 |
| Vidocq_CC | So for all you authors out there wondering how to write that crime scene and make it real, here is Sue! #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:01:09 +0000 |
| Vidocq_CC | @LilacLounge Thank you, Sue, for doing this chat and for your steadfast support of this chat. #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:02:13 +0000 |
| Barnesy_ | hello all, time for another great #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:02:37 +0000 |
| LilacLounge | @Vidocq_CC You're very welcome. I always enjoy these chats. #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:03:14 +0000 |
| LilacLounge | @Vidocq_CC Does anyone have any specific questions? Blood pattern analysis (BPA) is a huge topic... #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:03:50 +0000 |
| Vidocq_CC | @LilacLounge Can you repeat for us what arterial spurts and secondary transfer of wet blood from a stained object are? #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:03:52 +0000 |
| Vidocq_CC | @Barnesy_ Hi Daniel! #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:04:30 +0000 |
| bischofield | @LilacLounge Hi Sue. Can a smear be backtracked to make a readable print? #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:05:43 +0000 |
| LilacLounge | @Vidocq_CC Lets start with arterial: Stains can vary depending on site & type of injury, but there are general characteristics.. #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:06:13 +0000 |
| Barnesy_ | @LilacLounge how accurate are blood patterns in relation to where a person is standing or the type of weapon used? #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:07:03 +0000 |
| LilacLounge | @Vidocq_CC If the injured party is moving, patterns sometimes form a characteristic wave shape due to their pulse. #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:07:16 +0000 |
| Vidocq_CC | @bischofield Great question! #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:07:47 +0000 |
| Vidocq_CC | @McVladie Me too, good question. #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:07:56 +0000 |
| LilacLounge | @Vidocq_CC also characteristic: arterial stains usually contain a large volume of blood which may run on a vertical surface #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:08:31 +0000 |
| McVladie | RT @LilacLounge: @Vidocq_CC If injured party is moving, patterns sometimes form a characteristic wave shape due to their pulse. #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:09:26 +0000 |
| LilacLounge | @bischofield Re smears, possibly, but probably a fingerprint expert's question, although we do sometimes see prints in blood. #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:09:29 +0000 |
| LilacLounge | @Vidocq_CC secondary transfer can take many forms, dependent on the shape of the object which transfers the blood. #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:10:12 +0000 |
| LilacLounge | @Vidocq_CC Sometimes we can see imprints of tools or knife blades for e.g. (or any manner of object) due to secondary transfer #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:11:32 +0000 |
| Vidocq_CC | Can you lift a wet blood spot without damaging the underlying dry blood print? #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:12:28 +0000 |
| LilacLounge | @Barnesy_ shape of blood spots can usually give a good idea of the direction airborne blood has travelled relative to a surface #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:12:53 +0000 |
| dtkev | @LilacLounge what if any effect does extreme temps have on the seperation of blood #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:13:31 +0000 |
| LilacLounge | @Vidocq_CC for what reason? It's more usual to photograph for pattern interp & swab to recover for DNA. #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:13:36 +0000 |
| LilacLounge | @Vidocq_CC Alternatively, one might choose to remove an entire stain / spot if it's on a suitable surface, such as fabric #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:14:15 +0000 |
| LilacLounge | @dtkev That's a very good question. Temp will affect drying time but unclear how this might otherwise affect a stain. #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:16:07 +0000 |
| Vidocq_CC | @LilacLounge Thinking along the lines of two people dripping in the same spot but at different times. #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:17:23 +0000 |
| Vidocq_CC | @LilacLounge Thinking along the lines of two people dripping in the same spot but at different times. #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:17:23 +0000 |
| LilacLounge | @dtkev if however, we're talking liquid samples, e.g. for tox testing, then they would need to be refrigerated or best preserved #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:17:25 +0000 |
| LilacLounge | @dtkev if however, we're talking liquid samples, e.g. for tox testing, then they would need to be refrigerated or best preserved #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:17:25 +0000 |
| McVladie | If blood has been treated with bleach or enzyme can DNA still be recovered? #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:18:32 +0000 |
| McVladie | If blood has been treated with bleach or enzyme can DNA still be recovered? #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:18:32 +0000 |
| LilacLounge | @Barnesy_ continuing your Q: cast off stains from a weapon can give a good indication of a scenario, e.g. no of swings of a bat #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:19:34 +0000 |
| LilacLounge | @Barnesy_ continuing your Q: cast off stains from a weapon can give a good indication of a scenario, e.g. no of swings of a bat #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:19:34 +0000 |
| LilacLounge | @McVladie depends on extent of treatment. Bleach etc is pretty destructive to DNA, so chances of profile reduced significantly #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:20:30 +0000 |
| LilacLounge | @McVladie depends on extent of treatment. Bleach etc is pretty destructive to DNA, so chances of profile reduced significantly #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:20:30 +0000 |
| LilacLounge | @Vidocq_CC Ah ok. We might be able to distinguish two separate blood trails if people are moving... 1/2 #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:21:24 +0000 |
| LilacLounge | @Vidocq_CC Ah ok. We might be able to distinguish two separate blood trails if people are moving... 1/2 #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:21:24 +0000 |
| Vidocq_CC | @ColdCaseSquad Hi Joe! #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:21:40 +0000 |
| McVladie | @LilacLounge So my killer could almost be assured of escape...my fictional killer that is... #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:22:16 +0000 |
| LilacLounge | @Vidocq_CC If they were stationary & dripping at same location then swab a selection & DNA test. #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:22:25 +0000 |
| LilacLounge | @Vidocq_CC there would likely be no information from this pattern re the timescales unless some other factor had intervened #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:23:17 +0000 |
| dtkev | @LilacLounge actually I was maily concerned about the crime scene itself #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:23:28 +0000 |
| bischofield | @LilacLounge How many markers are needed in UK to confirm definite identification? #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:24:04 +0000 |
| LilacLounge | @Vidocq_CC for example, outdoors, one person drips, it rains, then later another person bled at the same place. #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:24:05 +0000 |
| McVladie | Would like to know if you are aware of device that can read blood type in body. Seen prototype but do not know how it works? #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:24:33 +0000 |
| Vidocq_CC | @LilacLounge Correct, thanks! #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:25:01 +0000 |
| McVladie | Alas I must bid you farewell...Must put down a slight peasant revolt. #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:26:06 +0000 |
| LilacLounge | @dtkev ok, so drying time is the real affect. May also see physiologically altered blood stains. e.g. if a stain clots then 1/2 #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:26:36 +0000 |
| Vidocq_CC | @McVladie Thanks and see you later! #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:27:23 +0000 |
| LilacLounge | @dtkev there may be separation of cells & serum. This might affect patterns caused by any interaction with that stain afterwards #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:28:05 +0000 |
| ColdCaseSquad | Hello folks sorry I'm late #Cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:28:45 +0000 |
| LilacLounge | @McVladie Hello, Sorry to have missed your Q. I'm not aware of this device. I'll look it up & find out for you if I can 🙂 #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:28:54 +0000 |
| LilacLounge | @bischofield We look at 10 markers + a sex test. However, we never consider a DNA match to absolutely confirm identity. #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:30:05 +0000 |
| ColdCaseSquad | I'm just going to skulk in the background until I see what is going on #Cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:30:21 +0000 |
| LilacLounge | @ColdCaseSquad Hi Joe 🙂 Questions are coming thick & fast today! Do you have any? 😉 #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:30:39 +0000 |
| ColdCaseSquad | Hi Sue what's the topic? #Cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:31:21 +0000 |
| dtkev | @LilacLounge thx! Good info. #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:32:01 +0000 |
| LilacLounge | @ColdCaseSquad We're talking blood and blood pattern analysis (& any other body fluid too...)! #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:32:23 +0000 |
| ColdCaseSquad | It wasn't me 😉 #Cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:34:15 +0000 |
| Vidocq_CC | You said you do not consider a DNA match an absolute ID confirmation, right? #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:34:39 +0000 |
| bluedog89 | RT @LilacLounge: @bischofield We look at 10+ markers. However, we never consider a DNA match to absolutely confirm identity. #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:35:22 +0000 |
| ColdCaseSquad | Sue does luminal affect DNA analysis? #Cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:35:26 +0000 |
| LilacLounge | While I have a mo, going back to @Barnesy_'s Q, I found this pic of percussive staining on a weapon #cclivechat http://t.co/zTqhc42j | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:35:34 +0000 |
| Vidocq_CC | From John Wood aka @old_chap: Allow wet biological stains to air-dry is the general advice but horses for courses. #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:35:50 +0000 |
| ColdCaseSquad | Misspelled luminol #Cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:35:51 +0000 |
| LilacLounge | @Vidocq_CC That's right. We consider *most* forensic evidence in terms of support for a proposition. 1/2 #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:36:20 +0000 |
| LilacLounge | @Vidocq_CC So for a DNA match, we say the match is a billion times more likely if from that person rather than another unrelated #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:37:19 +0000 |
| ColdCaseSquad | Hey @evie_g_l how are you? #Cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:37:32 +0000 |
| LilacLounge | @ColdCaseSquad Yes can have an affect, but we might only use luminol if there's little visible blood. #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:39:30 +0000 |
| bluedog89 | RT @LilacLounge: @Vidocq_CC For a DNA match, the match is a billion times more likely from that person than another unrelated. #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:39:37 +0000 |
| LilacLounge | @ColdCaseSquad Usually, plenty of visible blood means plenty of DNA. #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:39:51 +0000 |
| Vidocq_CC | Evie asks if you can explain what luminol is, Sue. #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:41:03 +0000 |
| ColdCaseSquad | Does it affect it chemically? #Cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:41:26 +0000 |
| Vidocq_CC | @bluedog89 Hi Steph! #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:41:34 +0000 |
| LilacLounge | @Barnesy_ re pic: a baseball bat was swung with wet blood on (bld ran R to L) but when struck, bld changes direction & feathers #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:41:56 +0000 |
| bluedog89 | @Vidocq_CC Hi all! 🙂 #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:42:33 +0000 |
| LilacLounge | @Vidocq_CC Evie_GL it's a chemical that reacts with haemoglobin & fluoresces under UV light. It's very sensitive #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:43:13 +0000 |
| ColdCaseSquad | Hey @bluedog89 long time no see! #Cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:43:16 +0000 |
| Vidocq_CC | @LilacLounge Fantastic picture and great explanation, would love to see more of these! #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:44:02 +0000 |
| Vidocq_CC | RT @LilacLounge: @Evie_G_L its a chemical that reacts with haemoglobin & fluoresces under UV light. Its very sensitive. #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:44:39 +0000 |
| LilacLounge | @LilacLounge the down side of luminol is that it can react with other things, not just blood, so can be tricky to interpret. #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:45:58 +0000 |
| ColdCaseSquad | @LilacLounge It can be used for semen too, right? #Cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:47:06 +0000 |
| firstforensic3 | #cclivechat I see that there is some work going on for ageing blood stains. Where do we stand at the moment? | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:47:08 +0000 |
| LilacLounge | @firstforensic3 I've seen those too. I'm not aware of any currently validated techniques for casework yet tho. Are you? #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:48:23 +0000 |
| bluedog89 | @ColdCaseSquad Greetings & salutations! #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:49:19 +0000 |
| Vidocq_CC | Do all body fluids always reflect all the drugs a person took eg alcohol, prescription meds, etc? #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:49:21 +0000 |
| LilacLounge | @ColdCaseSquad It's not widely used in the UK. I wouldn't use it for semen. In fact semen can fluoresce anyway... 1/2 #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:49:25 +0000 |
| ColdCaseSquad | @LilacLounge Under an alternate light source? #Cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:50:27 +0000 |
| LilacLounge | @ColdCaseSquad but there are much better tests for semen. The routine test is for a substance called acid phosphatase (AP) #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:50:28 +0000 |
| LilacLounge | @Vidocq_CC That's a toxicology question really & not strictly my area, but I do know that those tests are time dependent... 1/2 #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:51:22 +0000 |
| LilacLounge | @ColdCaseSquad semen? (can't see conv in tweetchat) yes under UV. Fluorescent semen in white light wld be kinda scary! #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:53:48 +0000 |
| Vidocq_CC | @LilacLounge So that is one for Peter's #cclivechat on toxicology on Feb 24th! cc @pwmullen | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:54:13 +0000 |
| LilacLounge | @bluedog89 Hi Steph! Just saw you'd joined us! Welcome!!! :-)) #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:54:27 +0000 |
| ColdCaseSquad | Thanks Sue! #Cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:54:47 +0000 |
| firstforensic3 | @LilacLounge No; still in the test tube stage I think. #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:55:39 +0000 |
| LilacLounge | @Vidocq_CC Definitely. Lots of variables affect break down (e.g. weight) Also drugs are retained in hair & nails: can be tested! #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:56:10 +0000 |
| Vidocq_CC | Five more minutes, folks! @lilaclounge is answering questions about blood patterns for DCC's #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:56:33 +0000 |
| ColdCaseSquad | I posted a new article on NY expansion of the DNA database. It could be a windfall for law enforcement http://t.co/KjqhLpSM #Cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:56:59 +0000 |
| LilacLounge | @firstforensic3 That's what I thought too. Some interesting articles out there though. Looks promising for the future. #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:56:59 +0000 |
| Vidocq_CC | @LilacLounge And I guess saliva, urine and snot as well? #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:57:04 +0000 |
| LilacLounge | @ColdCaseSquad Bookmarked for later reading!!! 🙂 #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:57:57 +0000 |
| Vidocq_CC | @LilacLounge @firstforensic3 Keep us posted, Andrew? #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:58:00 +0000 |
| ColdCaseSquad | @Vidocq_CC Said snot! #Cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:58:27 +0000 |
| bluedog89 | RT @ColdCaseSquad: New article on NY expansion of DNA database. It could be a windfall for law enforcement http://t.co/LUm1c2dt #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:58:40 +0000 |
| LilacLounge | @Vidocq_CC urine is commonly tox tested. Saliva can be too. Never heard of tox testing snot though. Good Q for Peter..? #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:59:37 +0000 |
| Vidocq_CC | @ColdCaseSquad 😀 #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:59:55 +0000 |
| bluedog89 | @ColdCaseSquad Too bad the DNA database expansion isn't nationwide. #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 18:00:02 +0000 |
| moinamac | @LilacLounge @vidocq_cc and breastmilk! #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 18:00:42 +0000 |
| Vidocq_CC | It is 1pm EST so unless you have any other questions for Sue, we close here. We can always add another chat on this topic. #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 18:01:04 +0000 |
| LilacLounge | @ColdCaseSquad & he made me say it too! ;/ #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 18:01:11 +0000 |
| Vidocq_CC | @moinamac Now we are talking! #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 18:01:19 +0000 |
| ColdCaseSquad | @bluedog89 Actually New Mexico's Katie's Law is better. They take DNA at arrest not after a conviction. #Cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 18:01:26 +0000 |
| LilacLounge | @moinamac Hello! Yes, didn't think of that one! #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 18:01:56 +0000 |
| ColdCaseSquad | @LilacLounge It could have been worse! #Cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 18:02:20 +0000 |
| LilacLounge | @Vidocq_CC Absolutely! Or maybe post questions on DCC? #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 18:02:32 +0000 |
| ColdCaseSquad | The Internet has corrupted everyone! #Cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 18:02:56 +0000 |
| bischofield | @Vidocq_CC @LilacLounge Thank you both, will be back next week. #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 18:02:59 +0000 |
| Vidocq_CC | @LilacLounge Yes, if you have more questions just ask them in the comment section below today's recap. #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 18:03:31 +0000 |
| Vidocq_CC | @ColdCaseSquad No, we are informed, more aware, and growing as a person. #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 18:04:01 +0000 |
| ColdCaseSquad | RT @Vidocq_CC: @LilacLounge Yes, if you have more questions just ask them in the comment section below todays recap. #Cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 18:04:04 +0000 |
| Vidocq_CC | @bischofield Thanks, Brenda! #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 18:04:12 +0000 |
| LilacLounge | @ColdCaseSquad Yes, & I've said worse in my time doing this job! #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 18:04:17 +0000 |
| Vidocq_CC | A HUGE thank you to Sue Carney for this very insightful chat on blood. #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 18:04:33 +0000 |
| ColdCaseSquad | This by far has been the most entertaining #Cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 18:05:03 +0000 |
| Vidocq_CC | Recap to be posted on DCC later today. The schedule for all themed chats is on the home page. #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 18:05:10 +0000 |
| LilacLounge | Phew! That was intense. It's been a great chat everyone. Let me know if I missed your questions & I'll answer later on DCC, ok? #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 18:05:27 +0000 |
| ColdCaseSquad | Signing off good people! Catch my #FF later to all at #Cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 18:06:02 +0000 |
| Vidocq_CC | Next week, Andrew Wade educates us about fire investigations! #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 18:06:02 +0000 |
| Vidocq_CC | RT @ColdCaseSquad: This by far has been the most entertaining #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 18:06:13 +0000 |
| LilacLounge | @Vidocq_CC Signing off for a while. Enjoy the rest of your Friday & catch you later. #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 18:06:40 +0000 |
| Vidocq_CC | Sue has left the building. I am going to type the recap. Can anyone turn off the light here, please? Thanks! #cclivechat | Fri, 03 Feb 2012 18:07:38 +0000 |