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You are here: Home / #crimechat / #CCLiveChat / #CCLiveChat recap Feb 10, 2012

#CCLiveChat recap Feb 10, 2012

February 10, 2012 By Alice

sum it up #cclivechatIn this CCLiveChat, Andrew Wade who introduced us to fire investigations. Andrew is a world renowned forensic scientist with over 30 years experience as a practitioner.

He joined the Metropolitan Police Forensic Science Laboratory in the chemistry section where he reported on numerous cases as a court going officer. In 1989 he transferred internally to the specialist Fire Investigation Unit. He resigned from the FSS in 1996 and took a post with West Yorkshire Police as a Forensic Science Manager, until 2000.

Andrew has specialised in fire and explosion investigation during this time and has visited in excess of one thousand fire scenes and other incidents. These have included several high profile and sensitive cases such as the 1992 fire at Windsor Castle and the examination of improvised explosive devices (IEDs) in terrorist and other criminal cases. His other areas of expertise include the examination and comparison of many types of materials including glass, paint, footwear marks, tyre marks, locks and toolmarks.

Andrew has presented expert evidence on over 200 occasions at courts of all levels. He has trained other forensic scientists, scenes of crime officers, police and fire brigade personnel in various aspects of forensic science. He also lectures in forensic science at Manchester Universitiy.

Andrew was a Registered Forensic Practitioner (RFP) and Speciality Assessor with The Council for the Registration of Forensic Practitioners (CRFP) before its demise in 2009. He is a member of the International Association of Arson Investigators (IAAI) and the British Association for Human Identification (BAHID). Andrew is also listed with Sweet & Maxwell (formerly Law Society) and the National Crime Agency as an accredited expert.

Amongst the many questions Andrew answered a few issues stood out. Those issues feature in many arson cases on appeal now. As I said before, a V-pattern does not necessarily point to the fire’s origin. There are many more factors that have to be examined.

Andrew explained flashover and agreed that the heat of the fire cannot decide whether a fire was arson or accidental fire. He mentioned that petrol burns at the same temperature as wood furniture. Those mistakes (and many more) play a role in many cases. If you are interested in those, click on forensic arson detection for more information and cases.

If there are any more questions, please place them in the comment section below this post. I will ask Andrew to answer those questions later as well.

The verbatim text is below.

Enjoy!

Vidocq_CCIt is noon and we have a burning hot chat for you today. Our guest is Andrew Wade. He has been a forensic scientist for 33+ yrs. #cclivechatFri, 10 Feb 2012 17:00:21 +0000
Vidocq_CCAndrew specialising in fires for the last 23 years investigating over 1000, many high profile cases. #cclivechatFri, 10 Feb 2012 17:00:49 +0000
Vidocq_CCWelcome Andrew and thank you for being our guest. Pls introduce yourself to our crew of followers! #cclivechatFri, 10 Feb 2012 17:01:58 +0000
Vidocq_CC@Evie_G_L I'll look for you Evie! #cclivechatFri, 10 Feb 2012 17:02:26 +0000
firstforensic3Hi, awaiting all your questions. #cclivechatFri, 10 Feb 2012 17:03:08 +0000
karenwade2RT @Vidocq_CC: Andrew specialising in fires for the last 23 years investigating over 1000, many high profile cases. #cclivechatFri, 10 Feb 2012 17:03:50 +0000
Vidocq_CCok, what is the first thing you do when you arrive at a scene? #cclivechatFri, 10 Feb 2012 17:04:14 +0000
Vidocq_CC@karenwade2 Hi Karen, thanks for the RT! #cclivechatFri, 10 Feb 2012 17:04:33 +0000
bischofield@firstforensic3 Are some arsonists just too good making it impossible to identify cause? #cclivechatFri, 10 Feb 2012 17:04:45 +0000
Vidocq_CC@bischofield Good question, Brenda! #cclivechatFri, 10 Feb 2012 17:05:52 +0000
legalacademia#ff @rjward2009 great guy @vidocq_cc http://t.co/X7wGH2yh can you give me the link for the #cclivechat please? (via @ffhelper)Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:05:57 +0000
firstforensic3Have a cup of tea? No, really need to look round the whole of the scene to get a feel for the scale. Take on information. #cclivechatFri, 10 Feb 2012 17:06:25 +0000
LilacLounge@firstforensic3 Hi Andrew! Which scene sticks in your mind as the most memorable or unusual that you've attended? #cclivechatFri, 10 Feb 2012 17:06:35 +0000
Vidocq_CC@legalacademia Add the hashtag in your search box to see all the tweets related to the chat, Gary! #cclivechatFri, 10 Feb 2012 17:07:31 +0000
firstforensic3@bischofield How can we tell? Usually arsonists arnt that clever or bothered about it being discovered. #cclivechatFri, 10 Feb 2012 17:07:35 +0000
firstforensic3@LilacLounge Windsor Castle in 1992 the most memorable; got to meet Prince Andrew. Others stick in the mind for other reasons. #cclivechatFri, 10 Feb 2012 17:08:39 +0000
Vidocq_CC@firstforensic3 How do you start investigating for that difference between arson and accidental fire? #cclivechatFri, 10 Feb 2012 17:08:43 +0000
bischofield@firstforensic3 Forgot #cclivechat ! But you must have strong feeling it's arson but not able to prove it?Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:10:07 +0000
Vidocq_CCFrom @Evie_G_L Do you look for traces of DNA at or around the scene of a fire? #cclivechatFri, 10 Feb 2012 17:10:25 +0000
firstforensic3@Vidocq_CC Seems a simple choice but actually can be very difficult. Obvious use of flamm. liquid or multi seats can help . . #cclivechatFri, 10 Feb 2012 17:10:37 +0000
firstforensic3. . but even then there may be legit reasons for these "indicators" #cclivechatFri, 10 Feb 2012 17:11:11 +0000
Vidocq_CCRead in paper "V-shaped pattern on wall of burned building is proof of arson. It shows where fire started." I disagree. You? #cclivechatFri, 10 Feb 2012 17:12:38 +0000
firstforensic3@bischofield Important to remember you are a scientist/fire investigator not an advocate. What can you prove is the key. #cclivechatFri, 10 Feb 2012 17:12:41 +0000
LilacLounge@firstforensic3 How does one identify the seat of a fire? What are the visible (or other) characteristics you look / test for? #cclivechatFri, 10 Feb 2012 17:13:11 +0000
firstforensic3@Vidocq_CC Usually work in conjunction with a CSI to cover other evidence types eg footwear marks, glass, fibres at POE etc. #cclivechatFri, 10 Feb 2012 17:14:04 +0000
firstforensic3Good point to remember though a fire scene is not just about fire investigation it can be a full crime scene. #cclivechatFri, 10 Feb 2012 17:15:13 +0000
bischofield@firstforensics3 How is it possible to detect cause in a total burn out? #cclivechatFri, 10 Feb 2012 17:15:28 +0000
pwmullen@firstforensic3 Hi Andrew! I have a basic practical Q. Are home CO detectors unreliable after they've been used once? #cclivechatFri, 10 Feb 2012 17:15:40 +0000
LilacLounge@firstforensic3 So is there often collaboration with other experts at a scene? #cclivechatFri, 10 Feb 2012 17:16:15 +0000
Vidocq_CC@pwmullen Hi Peter! #cclivechatFri, 10 Feb 2012 17:16:29 +0000
firstforensic3@Vidocq_CC Absolutely, it can give an indication of where a fuel load has burned i.e. a possible origin but many other factors #cclivechatFri, 10 Feb 2012 17:16:31 +0000
firstforensic3@LilacLounge Many different features can help. Need to establish the where then the how. The "where" can sometimes be big! #cclivechatFri, 10 Feb 2012 17:18:35 +0000
Vidocq_CCSome substances produce V-burn patterns but do NOT point to origin of fire such as ordinary bathroom+cleaning supplies, right? #cclivechatFri, 10 Feb 2012 17:18:40 +0000
LilacLounge@firstforensic3 do you ever carry out experiments away from the scene to test a particular case-related hypothesis? #cclivechatFri, 10 Feb 2012 17:18:53 +0000
firstforensic3@bischofield Yes, sometimes. Collapsed debris can protect fire patterns, flamm liquids or incendiary devices. #cclivechatFri, 10 Feb 2012 17:19:58 +0000
firstforensic3@pwmullen Hi, Dont know; Im afraid. If in doubt replace. #cclivechatFri, 10 Feb 2012 17:21:20 +0000
bischofield@firstforensic3 Yes, suppose the ceilng directly above start would be first to drop? #cclivechatFri, 10 Feb 2012 17:22:22 +0000
firstforensic3@Vidocq_CC V patterns just mean that something has been burning. It may be one of a number of indicators to establish the where. #cclivechatFri, 10 Feb 2012 17:22:39 +0000
Vidocq_CC@firstforensic3 Vpatterns have been used as sole indicators for point of origin in many arson cases now disputed on appeal. #cclivechatFri, 10 Feb 2012 17:24:18 +0000
firstforensic3@LilacLounge Yes usually. A joint Fire brigade/police/forensic examination may take place. Bring in specialists (eg electrical . #cclivechatFri, 10 Feb 2012 17:24:18 +0000
firstforensic3engineers) when needed. #cclivechatFri, 10 Feb 2012 17:24:37 +0000
StretLaw_co_ukLooking forward to my #cclivechat with @Vidocq_CC 20.04.12 http://t.co/aW6YxH4R take a look, fascinating siteFri, 10 Feb 2012 17:25:50 +0000
legalacademiaLooking forward to my #cclivechat with @Vidocq_CC 20.04.12 http://t.co/AALu55h5 take a look, fascinating siteFri, 10 Feb 2012 17:25:51 +0000
firstforensic3@LilacLounge Often small scale ignition tests. We used to use Cardington for big reconstructions-sadly now closed. #cclivechatFri, 10 Feb 2012 17:26:16 +0000
Vidocq_CCCan sudden influx of oxygen made trail that can be mistaken for pour pattern? #cclivechatFri, 10 Feb 2012 17:27:01 +0000
Vidocq_CC@legalacademia Thanks, Gary! Looking forward to that as well! #cclivechatFri, 10 Feb 2012 17:27:32 +0000
firstforensic3@bischofield Yes, in theory but might depend on integrity of ceiling eg cracks and type of ceiling- plasterboard, lathe&plaster #cclivechatFri, 10 Feb 2012 17:28:18 +0000
firstforensic3@Vidocq_CC Yes V patterns should not be looked at in isolation; part of the overall picture #cclivechatFri, 10 Feb 2012 17:29:28 +0000
Vidocq_CCRT @firstforensic3: Yes V patterns should not be looked at in isolation; part of the overall picture. #cclivechatFri, 10 Feb 2012 17:31:16 +0000
firstforensic3Flashover fires still attract the most misunderstanding. They tend to obliterate the usual patterns. #cclivechatFri, 10 Feb 2012 17:31:17 +0000
LilacLoungeRT @firstforensic3: Flashover fires still attract the most misunderstanding. They tend to obliterate the usual patterns. #cclivechatFri, 10 Feb 2012 17:32:01 +0000
Vidocq_CC@firstforensic3 Can you expand on this a little further? #cclivechatFri, 10 Feb 2012 17:32:06 +0000
firstforensic3During flashover, radiant heat from ceiling ignites materials away from the original point of ignition. Can give false image. . #cclivechatFri, 10 Feb 2012 17:34:59 +0000
firstforensic3. .of multiple ignition points. Ultimately, all the fire damage merges in to one making it almost impossible to find origin. #cclivechatFri, 10 Feb 2012 17:36:06 +0000
msashton_writer@firstforensic3 ~ What is static headspace? #CClivechatFri, 10 Feb 2012 17:37:17 +0000
bischofield@firstforensic3 Are you ever involved investigating outside UK? #cclivechatFri, 10 Feb 2012 17:37:28 +0000
Vidocq_CCWow, when did we first start to understand flashover? #cclivechatFri, 10 Feb 2012 17:37:56 +0000
Vidocq_CC@msashton_writer Hi Marguerite! #cclivechatFri, 10 Feb 2012 17:38:18 +0000
firstforensic3@bischofield I have done fires in Holland & Germany and nearly got to go to Cyprus, Pakistan and the Carribean! Still available! #cclivechatFri, 10 Feb 2012 17:39:49 +0000
bischofield@firstforensic3 See if I can arrange Caribbean for you! lol #cclivechatFri, 10 Feb 2012 17:41:42 +0000
firstforensic3@Vidocq_CC Flashover recognised 20yrs ago but not always appreciated was its effects. #cclivechatFri, 10 Feb 2012 17:41:58 +0000
msashton_writer@firstforensic3 ~ During an arson investigation, do you analyze biological evidence? #cclivechatFri, 10 Feb 2012 17:42:03 +0000
Vidocq_CC@bischofield I heard that! #cclivechatFri, 10 Feb 2012 17:42:20 +0000
msashton_writer@Vidocq_CC ~ Hello! #cclivechatFri, 10 Feb 2012 17:43:18 +0000
firstforensic3@msashton_writer When sampling some debris you take the volatile vapours from the air inside the bag ("headspace") #cclivechatFri, 10 Feb 2012 17:43:32 +0000
firstforensic3@bischofield Appreciate it! Any old island would do! #cclivechatFri, 10 Feb 2012 17:44:55 +0000
Vidocq_CC@firstforensic3 I heard that too! #cclivechatFri, 10 Feb 2012 17:46:06 +0000
firstforensic3@msashton_writer "Static" is when you suspend some absorbant material in the headspace. Then analyse that material. #cclivechatFri, 10 Feb 2012 17:46:14 +0000
firstforensic3@msashton_writer UK we usually use "dynamic" headspace - air sucked through an absorbant material. #cclivechatFri, 10 Feb 2012 17:47:09 +0000
bischofield@Vidocq_CC @firstforensic3 Research purposes, you understand. #cclivechatFri, 10 Feb 2012 17:47:32 +0000
Vidocq_CC@bischofield @firstforensic3 Sure, research ... sure! #cclivechatFri, 10 Feb 2012 17:48:53 +0000
bischofield@firstforensic3 @msashton_writer Would that tell you if/what kind of accelerant was used? #cclivechatFri, 10 Feb 2012 17:49:06 +0000
msashton_writer@firstforensic3 ~ Thank you. #cclivechatFri, 10 Feb 2012 17:51:44 +0000
Vidocq_CC10 minute warning, folks! Any burning questions? Andrew is still here! #cclivechatFri, 10 Feb 2012 17:51:48 +0000
firstforensic3@bischofield (usually!) very easy to distinguish between different ignitable liquids; petrol, diesel, paraffin, white spirit etc #cclivechatFri, 10 Feb 2012 17:51:58 +0000
Vidocq_CCWhy did we use to think that fire only burned downwards and not upwards? And that arson burned hotter than accidental fire? #cclivechatFri, 10 Feb 2012 17:53:18 +0000
firstforensic3Increasingly, sniffer dogs are used to identify poss. use of flammable liquid. Great tools but they do also have "buyer beware" #cclivechatFri, 10 Feb 2012 17:53:49 +0000
LilacLounge@firstforensic3 @msashton_writer DNA testing of items from fire scenes is sometimes requested but heat may have damaged DNA #cclivechatFri, 10 Feb 2012 17:53:50 +0000
firstforensic3@Vidocq_CC 1st Q- very simplified version of fire dynamics used by people without full understanding #cclivechatFri, 10 Feb 2012 17:56:00 +0000
msashton_writer@LilacLounge @firstforensic3 ~ Wow, thank you Sue. #cclivechatFri, 10 Feb 2012 17:56:22 +0000
firstforensic3@Vidocq_CC Q2 Heat has nothing to do with arson v accidental. Petrol burns at the same temperature as wood furniture for eg #cclivechatFri, 10 Feb 2012 17:57:14 +0000
bischofield@firstforensic3 Silly question but ru offered derelict property experiment on,so to speak,otherwise how do u advance knowledge? #cclivechatFri, 10 Feb 2012 17:57:46 +0000
Vidocq_CCThose two points were frequently used to convict people. Lost of those cases around here. #cclivechatFri, 10 Feb 2012 17:58:44 +0000
firstforensic3@bischofield Yes, occasionally. Though limitations because derelict prop may be next to occupied housing. Annoy the neighbours! #cclivechatFri, 10 Feb 2012 18:00:24 +0000
Vidocq_CCLast call for questions for Andrew! #cclivechatFri, 10 Feb 2012 18:00:34 +0000
firstforensic3@Vidocq_CC Ive read the cases; appalling. At least some people are fighting to put things right! #cclivechatFri, 10 Feb 2012 18:01:22 +0000
LilacLounge@bischofield @firstforensic3 mentioned Cardington in a previous tweet. See here: http://t.co/Br7iPP7g Closed now-correct Andrew? #cclivechatFri, 10 Feb 2012 18:02:01 +0000
Vidocq_CCAndrew, thank you so very much for answering Q after Q! #cclivechatFri, 10 Feb 2012 18:02:02 +0000
Vidocq_CCI will post a recap on DCC and possible other questions can be posted in the comment section. #cclivechatFri, 10 Feb 2012 18:02:37 +0000
firstforensic3My pleasure. Keep the questions coming. Contact through Twitter or website http://t.co/plrH5BhP #cclivechatFri, 10 Feb 2012 18:03:27 +0000
Vidocq_CCAnd last words, Andrew? Wait, that did not come out right! Well, you know what I mean, right? #cclivechatFri, 10 Feb 2012 18:03:28 +0000
LilacLounge@firstforensic3 it's been a fascinating chat today. Thank you. Been glued to my screen! 🙂 #cclivechatFri, 10 Feb 2012 18:03:39 +0000
bischofield@Vidocq_CC @firstforensic3 Thank you so much, both of you #cclivechatFri, 10 Feb 2012 18:03:59 +0000
Vidocq_CCRT @firstforensic3: My pleasure. Keep the questions coming. Contact through Twitter or website http://t.co/5c9x56xS #cclivechatFri, 10 Feb 2012 18:04:25 +0000
LilacLoungeRT @firstforensic3: My pleasure. Keep the questions coming. Contact through Twitter or website http://t.co/cYPhKYyc #cclivechatFri, 10 Feb 2012 18:04:40 +0000
Vidocq_CCNever thank me. Thank the guests who donate their time to DCC in order to educate us in plain English! #cclivechatFri, 10 Feb 2012 18:05:03 +0000
firstforensic3@LilacLounge Thats the one; it was a great resource. #cclivechatFri, 10 Feb 2012 18:05:05 +0000
Vidocq_CCAndrew, thanks again, recap to be posted soon. Thanks all! Next chat 2/17 is an update on cold cases. #cclivechatFri, 10 Feb 2012 18:06:11 +0000
Vidocq_CCThe schedule for all the themed chats is on DCC's homepage! #cclivechatFri, 10 Feb 2012 18:06:31 +0000
LilacLoungeChecking out of #cclivechat! A great weekend to all participants. Catch you all later!Fri, 10 Feb 2012 18:06:34 +0000
Vidocq_CC@LilacLounge Bye, Sue! #cclivechatFri, 10 Feb 2012 18:07:38 +0000
Vidocq_CC@bischofield Bye, Brenda! #cclivechatFri, 10 Feb 2012 18:07:55 +0000
Vidocq_CCSigning off! #cclivechatFri, 10 Feb 2012 18:09:20 +0000

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Filed Under: #CCLiveChat, Forensics Tagged With: Andrew Wade, Arson Detection, Cameron Todd Willingham, Capital Punishment, Expert Testimony, Forensics, Miscarriage of Justice, UK

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  1. Sum it Up! #42 says:
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    […] alerted me to an interesting article about Fire Risk Assessment. Andrew has been a guest in my #CrimeChats. The article on the website Code Red Fire Safety gives an important overview of what risk […]

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On this website, I write about old, unsolved cases. Most are from the pre-DNA era and are in need of renewed media attention. I only do research and leave the active investigation of these cases to the professionals.

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